Tuesday, September 25, 2007

You're Not Going to Heaven Unless You Are a Pretribulationalist

Some more fun John Hagee stuff...

Here's Hagee on the importance of the Rapture, saying explicitly that unless you believe in his version of events of pretribulationalism, that you will be "left behind." Forget "Faith in Christ = salvation." It's now "Faith in Christ + pretribulational eschatology = salvation"! See his remarks on this starting at :52

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtNyEJDUU6U&mode=related&search=

And here's Hagee's in the same sermon talking about the 10 Signs that we must be the "terminal generation." Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUMWZuvocbA&mode=related&search=

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeL1_p_esg0&mode=related&search=

I'm guessing this sermon is a few years old given the catastrophic reference to SARS, which hasn't yet eliminated the human race interestingly enough and has mostly dropped off the radar screen in the media. I especially love his description of people's future confusion after the rapture as if they are all morons. I'm sure that after all the Christians disappear--and cars start colliding into each other, planes crash, and fundamentalist churches everywhere are empty--that everyone is going to blame it on space aliens or explain it away with psychology (or understand what really happened and yet choose to follow the "antichrist" anyway). When you really sit and think through this on both a Scriptural and logical level, you really have to wonder how so many people could believe this ridiculous nonsense. As the false predictions continue to pile up from several generations of "prophecy experts," it's only a matter of time before this doctrine is completely discredited and ceases misleading people.

18 comments:

Ben Osborne said...

Let me preface my comments by saying that I am not a pretribulationist.

But Bill, when an skeptic asks a question like "If God exists, why doesn't He make his existence more obvious by appearing in the sky or something." Christians (including me) usually answer along the lines of "Even if God were to do that, those who do not want to believe would still not believe." Hagee's explanation as to why the world won't "figure it out" once all Christians are raptured seems consistent with that. And there's also the resurrection of Lazarus, where the observers wanted to stone Christ and Lazarus, i.e. destroy the evidence of the miracle rather than bend their knee to Christ.

Hagee's argument has a lot of weaknesses, but are you sure that this one of them?

Bill Barnwell said...

I'm sympathetic to that argument, but I'd also add that God did dwell in the flesh amongst humanity, left an empty grave, and written records of His mighty acts throughout the ages. And still today manifests Himself in many ways, including the miraculous. And yes, even those who experience such things still refuse to believe, or at least want to give themselves wholly to God. So just because God hasn't rained down a heavenly banner that says "I really am real" doesn't mean He hasn't been doing anything.

But even all that wouldn't be quite analogous to comparing this, or the Lazarus example, with massive numbers of Christians dissapering and then everyone blaming it on Martians or whatever else. It's interesting that many other pretribbers recognize the weirdness and weakness of this argument, and say that, people will really understand that God was behind this but that they will choose to further hate God and follow the antichrist. Now, I'm not the smartest man in the world, but let's just say I wasn't a Christian. Let's say I heard of the Left Behind books and knew basically what they were about (as do many secularists). Suddenly all the Christians are gone and I say to myself "Wow, apparently that stuff really was Biblical and from God. But you know what, I'm so angry that I was passed over and I really hate God anyway. I'm going to follow the antichrist. Ok, maybe the Bible was right about the "rapture" but maybe it's wrong about God defeating the antichrist. I'm going with the AC!" That sounds moronic on so many levels and one need not be a Christian to figure out why.

Of course, all this assumes Hagee's version of events is correct, which I obviously don't agree with. But not only is the doctrine bad in my opinion, so are the logical ramifications of holding to them.

Robin said...

It would be interesting to see how popular the pretrib doctrine remains should America become an obviously repressive police state. Popularity is no test of truth, of course. But I'm guessing the proposition that one is going to be beamed up before heavy duty persecution arrives would seem ever more silly and irrelevant as the dreary, dangerous years go by.

Steve Scott said...

If Christians are to love our neighbors as ourselves, a pre-trib airline pilot would have to demand that his co-pilot be a non-Christian so that when he was raptured, hundreds of people wouldn't die. Don'tcha think? No Christian with a conscience would ever operate heavy mancinery while under the influence of medication, so why would they do it under influence of immanent rapture?

Chuck said...

Bill, this does not surprise me at all. It is just amazing to me that Hagee has any credibility at all.

Chuck Fles

Anonymous said...

Hagee actually makes me rather sick.
There is nothing Christian about him at all. Rather than conforming to Biblical rules of evidence and correct exegesis, Hagee continues to use the discredited lies of Darby and Scofield. It's quite cultic, especially with his claim that if you don't believe in his version of the 2nd coming you're not saved. Kool-aid anyone?
Robert

Anonymous said...

Bill I am not sure I agree with your Youtube example. If you mean by rapture the return of Jesus, as Hagee does, then yes one has to believe in the return of Jesus.

I bet if you asked Hagee if Christians who are post trib are true Christians and will be in the "rapture" he would say yes.

It looks to me like you are guilty of equivocation confusing rapture as a doctrine with the question of timing.

BTW, I am not pretrib and often agree with your critiques of pop theology.

Positive Dennis

Darren Pardee said...

Positive Dennis,
I'm going to have to disagree with your comment. I think it is quite clear from the very first sample Barnwell provides that Hagee is definitely talking about a pretrib doctrine and suggesting (as he does from the start) that if you are not "looking for Him" (when he comes FIRST for the Christian church) you will not find Him (meaning you will not be saved). He repeats this over and over, and then launches into a description of planes falling from the sky when Christian pilots are aboard (with a graphic behind him illustrating it) and the audience actually laughing at the image. Hagee actually makes a joke about those silly non-Christians dying in mass numbers. Despite his intentions, he is unwittingly sowing the seeds of hatred and intolerance in his congregation, and it has a great deal to do with his pretribulational stance. He even states that people ask him all the time, what does it matter if you believe in a rapture or not, and then he tells you specifically why. He says you will not be with Jesus in the end, if you don't believe He is coming first for the church. It was quite plain to me. Why else launch into the images of thousands upon millions disappearing, graves being unearthed, and New Agers trying to come up with explanations? He uses all of these images after specifically stating that it is heresy to question Scripture. Only problem is, he thinks pretrib doctrine IS Scripture, hence, it's heresy to question the pretrib doctrine.

Justin said...

At the Last Day, God isn't going to look at us and say "What's your opinion on the Israeli capture of the Golan Heights?" No, instead, He is more likely to ask the TV preachers why they stabbed the Palestinian Christians in the back. (They will know we are His disciples by our love for one another. No wait, Jesus didnt mean Arab Christians...)

In 2000 and 2001 I interviewed for jobs with various foreign policy offices in D.C. To prepare, I scoured back issues of the Economist, Foreign Affairs, intelligence hearings, etc. During this process, I came to the conclusion- based totally on secular sources- that the United States’ next security problem would come from Afghanistan. Five months 9-11 happened.

Would I ever have learned this from reading prophecy books or watching John Hagee? Of course not.

How come, after relying solely on non-Christian media, I knew our next major security problem would originate in Afghanistan but Christianity at-large was NOT prepared by their favorite authors? I am living proof that a regular guy can do far better and get more reliable information by ignoring the prophecy industry altogether.

After our forces were deployed in Afghanistan I actually heard John Hagee say on TV that the OPEC nations would be so offended by our occupation of one of their own that they would band together and attack us. There’s a problem. Afghanistan is not in OPEC. And why would they be? They don’t have any oil to sell. That’s why Afghanis live in poverty and grow opium. This scenario was central to his prediction, yet it was fundamentally wrong. Do you think anyone else caught the error? Probably not.

Anonymous said...

FAMOUS RAPTURE WATCHERS is like a "rapture" education in a nutshell! Just type in that title on google and you will agree. John

Anonymous said...

Maybe Christians should come over to the 4th viewpoint, it's called 'panamillenist'. Everything will 'pan' out in the end according to the will of God. If they could be settled on that viewpoint, then they could spend more time witnessing about the wonderful grace provided by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. And that grace is available to all who ask to receive it....Jew, Arab, or anything else.

Dennis De Jarnette said...

Maybe I was wrong in my interpretation of Hagge. I just saw his daily program and he said that if you critised the Jew across the street this was Anti--Semitism and you would go to hell.

Positive Dennis

Anonymous said...

Bill you're ignorant! Study every word of the BIBLE and stop critiquing Hagee.... Why don't you tell us about the bible, explain it every step of the way and tell us what each word is really telling us in the hebrew version? Rather than analyzing Hagee, analyze the Bible and give us your take/interpretation on every single book of the Bible. You are like Thomas the Doubter...Only until YOU see it, will you believe it!! Even then , you will probably still critize and doubt. What little faith ye have! Relearn what faith is...

Bill Barnwell said...

To the last hysterical commenter, I've basically done what you've asked in numerous other classes, studies, published articles, etc. No, I have not written sensationalist prophecy books for mass consumption, but I have publicly backed up my positions. Now, you are free to disagree with that, but don't speak out of ignorance and say I have failed to produce reasons for my belief. As I've said countless times, it's BECAUSE of the Bible that I hold the eschatological beliefs that I do, not in spite of it. Unfortunately for you, Hagee's exegesis is not as rock solid as you think it is.

robin said...

Justin writes:

"After our forces were deployed in Afghanistan I actually heard John Hagee say on TV that the OPEC nations would be so offended by our occupation of one of their own that they would band together and attack us. There’s a problem. Afghanistan is not in OPEC."

There is no shortage of horribly ignorant pastors, and Americans in general have been dumbed down in matters political, economic, historical and geographical. Lacking knowledge about the world, they fill in the blanks with mass media propaganda, popular stereotypes, tortured guesswork, and even pure fantasy.

In this sadly typical case, Hagee bases his reasoning on the myth that Near Eastern Muslims are a homogeneous people, barbarian darkies riding their camels past oil fields.

Several months ago I heard the preacher at my supervisor's funeral claim that the deceased (a Vietnam era Navy vet) and his comrades had "stopped communism" in Vietnam, and anyone who said otherwise was ignorant and/or evil. Wow. Did Preacher Man (a Baby Boomer himself) sleep through the 1970s? Keep his head in a paper bag? Because I clearly recall not only the "dominoes" (South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia) falling to the Reds, but Angola, Mozambique and Nicaragua too. And I'm a full generation younger than him!

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