Tuesday, March 13, 2007

Ghandi and Hellen Keller Burning in Hell for All Eternity?

The President of Fuller Theological Seminary, Richard Mouw leader of one of the world's best seminary's, takes a crack at this, and responds to a Baptist theologian who says there's no other honest Christian position than Ghandi being in hell. Mouw offers caution:

http://www.netbloghost.com/mouw/?p=21

Whose position do you find yourself more sympathetic to? The Baptist guy's, or Mouw's?

My own take on this:

I'm uncomfortable opening up a can of worms that someone can be "in Christ" without themselves proclaiming Christ...however there's the other can of worms that can be opened in the strict absolutist position as well which Mouw is concerned about. Logically, if we open the door (rightfully as 99.9% of Christians believe) for infants, mentally disabled, etc, you'd think this would apply in some sense to those who live in forced ignorance their whole lives as well. So in actuality, all Christians--including predestinationist Calvinists--allow for some sort of grace and salvation of peoples who are not able to process propositional doctrinal formulas. And if we take the position that the unborn as people, then I certainly don't see much logic in punishing the spirits of fetuses for eternity. Ghandi's case would be a bit different since he did in fact know about Christ. Yet at the same time he bore much more fruit than most professed Christians who have lived.

Can grace be obtained only by intellectually believing Evangelical-friendly doctrinal propositions? Is the guy who professes Christ and bears little fruit infinitely better off than the other guy who bears a ton of fruit but doesn't believe the right intellectual propositions? Can the latter group still be covered by grace and somehow be "in Christ"? I suppose at best I'd maybe be privately and cautiously optimistic that some could be covered by grace in such a way, but for those I encounter who are able to hear the gospel, I'll stick to preaching repentance and born again theology. I'll leave the rest in God's hands, though I won't be as dogmatic as the Baptist guy and find myself agreeing with Mouw--Not a univeralist, are consequences for those who reject the gospel, but that we shouldn't either underestimate God's grace and how he handles some of these difficult questions. I think it would be important to note that Mouw or others would still maintain that the ignorant or whoever would hypothetically be covered by God's grace and that the Cross event is still central to this. But how this would work I really don't know, which is why I wouldn't feel comfortable preaching it.

14 comments:

Gene Redlin said...

Bill,
First, there are "Degrees" of heaven. Just as there are degrees of hell. Since I know you are a pretty good theologian you understand this (many Stripes).

The temptation to universalism driven by good works is great. Just wrong.

Hitler (no universalist Heaven occupier) did a lot of GOOD works, bore a lot of fruit.

Autobahns, Universal Health Care, Universal Educational Opprotuities, Volkswagen, and restoration of pride for a demoralized German nation after WWI.

Many Germans to this day appreciate what he did.

Does that offset the bad. Of course not. No more than good offsets the failure to name the name of Jesus as Lord God despite all the evidence and drawing of the Holy Spirit.

That ultimately is the unforgiveable. Beligerant Resistance to the Call of God by the Holy Spirit.

One could say, well they never heard the call. OK. I'll go with that.

But, where does the excuse last.

I will give you this. If few stripes it might just be spritiual death. Even in the book of Revelation, death is the end. That's another teaching.

But, it's not heaven, full of Glory with Joy unspeakable.

How could anyone have the sea of glass populated by those who denied or at least failed to embrace the Lamb of God in life.

The doctrine that solves all this is the fact that when a person is concieved, even before, their name is written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Satan is the one who accuses and looks for a reason to blot it out.

Denying Jesus is a reason.

Sorry, it's just the truth.

Bill Barnwell said...

Gene, I'm not sure where I wrote that Ghandi was saved because he did good works, or that I would teach or preach such a thing. Whether he is saved or damned is not either of our decision to make. I'm just a bit uncomfortable with countless Christians trying to do God's job for Him.

Anonymous said...

I don't think it's doing God's job for Him to allow these verses from the Bible to speak for themselves-

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me."

and

Acts 4:12

"And there is salvation in and through no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we must be saved."

Some may respond "That's not fair!" and they are right. Hell is a very fair place for any human being to end up. Personally speaking, I do not want God to be "fair" to me. I'd much rather He be merciful and gracious to me.

I'll end on this one, Ephesians 2: 8-9-

"For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]"

Bill Barnwell said...

I am well aware of the verses you cite and don't really need the doctrine of salvation presented to me. Perhaps go back and read the original link and Mouw's statements regarding just parroting these verses rather than leaving the issues in God's hands. Yes, I believe there are big consequences for rejecting the gospel, but somebody's ultimate fate is not my or your decision and if Matt. 25 is any indication, there will be some surprise regarding who is "in" and who is "out."

Anonymous said...

Please show me in my previous statement where I(by my own admission, a miserable sinner saved totally and completely by the grace of a loving, merciful God and not anything remotely good in myself) ever said that I had anything remotely to do with the decision where others spend eternity. If anything, I "parroted the Bible verses" as you so tactfully put it to show what God's Word(not me) said about this issue. The opinion of a worthless sinner like me is irrelevant but I'm one of those strange people who thinks God's opinion graciously imparted to us thru His inerrant, infallible Word is very relevant when it comes to the issue at hand.

As for "not needing the message of God's salvation presented to you" that's wonderful for you. Speaking for myself, I need it to be preached to me and and to be reminded of it every day of my life.

Peace.

Bill Barnwell said...

OK, anon, they are all rotting in hell and you already know how God has judged each individual by quoting a few Scriptures. And yes that's basically what your suggestion is, which is clear enough by your last post inferring that the matter of each individual soul is open and shut based on quoting a few passages (and that I somehow don't take the Scriptures seriously by not being more of a hardliner on knowing how God judges particular individuals). Again, we have some texts that suggest some surprises on judgement day. Whether or not Ghandi is somehow saved is questionable at best but frankly I'm quite tired of believers who believe they are morally superior to everyone else because they quote a few Scriptures and recite the correct propositional doctrines. Also, I think it's a bit troubling if you need the plan of salvation presented regularly rather than Scripture and disciplines regularly that spur you further in your Christian walk, but I'm assuming you'd include this into the equation. In any event, this conversation is bordering on irrelevant since the line is just divided between those who want to take a more cautious approach on the subject and those who believe everything is just an open and shut case.

devosion said...

This is a most interesting topic you bring up here, since I seem to find a similar generality crammed into random theological and philosophical forums I visit.

Personally I dont feel Gandhi made it to heaven at all. Im sure he attained moksha, the man deserved that out of his faith. Now whether he attained 'heaven' as we like to call it is already bringing universality into question and there is no way of answering this question without bending to the will of universality.

We must remember he was a Hindu first and a Christian never. In any case im sure God gave unto him what belonged to him.

Anonymous said...

Bill,

I'm not very well versed in Ghandi. I have read some writings of his, and had an opportunity to discuss them with a professor who teaches a course in Ghandi at a public university. Ghandi clearly rejected Christianity. He encountered missionaries in South Africa and India. He read Chrsitian works and rejected them and Jesus. In particular his views concerning the status of animals caused him to reject Jesus. Ghandi's consideration of Christianity did not strike me as being indicative of a great philosopher. He was very simplistic.

Ultimately Hindus assassinated him because they felt that he betrayed them in allowing Muslins to slaughter thousands of Hindus. Politics get blurry. My issue is Jesus. Ghandi was a denier of Jesus. Ghandi in heaven? No. Great philosopher? No. Great peace activist? Yes, if we ignore the thousands of Hindus killed under his watch. Justifiable opponent of the British? Yes. Where haven't the British made a mess, anyway?

peytonlucy

Bill Barnwell said...

Let me again state that I'm not arguing for Ghandi's entrance into heaven, or that he had things spiritually all together while on earth.

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