Another Brilliant Bible Scholar Speaks
From some lady named Kelly, unedited:
Email #1
Hey Mr., i would like to say brother, but, i just read some of your stuff. Honestly, this really fascinates me, every time there is a false doctrine being preached, the person doing it says " you need to study the word" " lets see what the word really says" man that is ridiculous. the catching away in the twinkling of an eye, so what are you saying , that is the 2nd coming?? does that sound like the 2nd coming?? two men at the mill one taken and the other one left, thats not even a rapture verse, you should study a little more. you can't be surprized when real christians think that or assume that your not one, look at what comes out of your mouth. God is not the author of confusion, people like you are. I'm not saying this in an angy way either, its just a fact. i started to read your stuff and thought that it might carry some weight but then it fell to jibberish and cultish, isn't th holiness movement a well known cult?? Last point, and the most clear point which shows that your lost is, " then how are we supposed to make the world a better place" WHAT???? did God command us to make the world abetter place?? is that the goal of the true child of God, didn't Jesus say that the world would hate us because it hated Him first??? dude your LOST!!! i doubt very much that your gonna make it. i'll pray for ya right now, but after that i will probably for get about you, as you will me. so REPENT AND BELIEVE, read the word as i do, a lover of truth with no agena but to learn Gods truth!!! sincerely , someone who knows p.s. sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but people like you in my opinion are really glazed over in the mind and i'm trying to plant a seed that the birds of the air won't snatch up right away!!!!
Email #2
Thanks for the quick response, i have studied this more than you know and a proper " debate" would take time, time that i don't have. BUT, if your willing i will make my points one by one with scripture and we will see if you can hang with me. If you really want to know the truth, then you will find it. First of all , forget the argument that " history" says there has never been this pre-trib theory, therefore it can't be true, because number 1 thats not true, there have been writings found that support the belief in a pretrib rapture. anyway lets stick to what God says and not man, the jews are still waiting for messiah, does that mean he hasn't come yet???? now i will give it some thought and prayer and get back to you on my first point soon and you can try to shoot them down one by one or start to learn the real truth!! and i did hear that the holiness movement was a cult unless i'm thinking of something else, didn't they start out by not believing in the trinity??? Chosen by Him, kelly
Email #3
alright now your getting hostile, do you believe that there even is a tribulation?? the time of Jacobs trouble?? :You definetley are putting more weight on fact that "history" says this or that. paul said i show you a MYSTERY!!!!!! why couldn't the jews realize that messiah had to suffer?/ it was in the scriptures wasn't it? so just because the forefathers of the church couldn't figure out the pretrib rapture mystery, doesn't prove that its not true! can you understand that? so really what your saying is there is no rapture at all or are you a post-tribber? common man lets get it going, who is going to repopulate the earth during the 1000 reign of Christ? let me guess, there is no millenium, right? and besides, wesleyanism is not something you want to raise a flag for is it?? don't they believe you can lose your salvation?? wooooooo you don't want to debate that do you?? how about election, my true specialty, no no, i think you even cited methodists, are you kidding me, they have been dead for decades, my motherinlaw goes to one and it is dead as a doornail. you see how frustrating it is for me, you have said so many things in IGNORANCE, where do i begin, now you are right about me questioning your relationship with the Lord, but honestly if your not getting the truth, i can only think of the poor slobs who sit under the teaching of a creflo dollar or benny hinn or something!! God help you, i mean it, listen my favorite teacher is John MacArthur, he is obviously much wiser than i am, so i suggest you learn from him, ;you won't be dissappointed or deceived!!! amen and amen, kd
I get plenty of these type of responses each time I write a piece on eschatology. This is just one I found particularly entertaining. See my responses in the comments section. Honestly, I don't even know why I take the time to communicate with people like this who are not interested at all in intelligent discussion or really digging into the Biblical text.
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10 comments:
My first response:
Actually, no, the "twinkling of an eye" passage you are referring to is not referring to a "pre-trib" rapture and nobody every taught as such until 1830. Was everyone prior to 1830 unsaved also? Are you aware that NOBODY believed or taught a "pre-trib" rapture prior to this time? The verse you are referring to is I Corinthians 15:51-52 which is talking in language about the change that occurs with the resurrection body. Read these verses in context. It only is talking about a "pre-trib" rapture is you make it say that and impose it on the text. Even many pre-tribbers know this verse is not saying what you want it to say. The timing of the resurrection of believers does not even coincide to your time table of a rapture prior to a 7 year tribulation. This is not talking about an "could happen at any moment" rapture into heaven, but a definitive time when believers receive their resurrected bodies. Basically we are talking about the translation of people into the resurrection body, not translation into heaven before an interim period. Don't insert discussion of a "rapture" here when the original author, the Apostle Paul never intended it.
Also, you allude to Matthew 24:38-41, regarding one being "taken" and the other "left." Again, read this passage in context. Jesus compares it to the "days of Noah" where people "were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark, and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away." Let me ask you, who were the people that were "took" (sic) here? The good people or the bad people? The bad people. Then Jesus draws an analogy. He says it will be like this when the son of man comes (vs. 39b). "Two men will in the field, one will be taken and the other left." Given that Jesus is drawing an analogy here, it is completely irresponsible to say took/taken means one thing in verse 39 but another in verse 41! It's not the good people who are "taken" up to heaven in a "rapture" the people who are taken in both accounts are bad people who are taken into judgement. Just a little contextual study makes that very clear.
Also, yes God did very clearly command us to make the world a better place (Matt. 5:13-16; 28:16-20; Acts 1:8, etc, etc). Jesus' ministry didn't only consist of getting people to recant a sinner's prayer. He met actual human needs and the whole of Scripture call us to be countercultural, not to love the sinful world, but to be a bright light within it and a force for good. And where in the world do you come up with holiness denominations being "cults"? I guess no conservative United Methodist, Nazarene, Wesleyan, etc, etc are saved either. By the way, probably the bulk of Evangelical churches in America have some connection to the Wesleyan-holiness movement in some form or another, and most of these churches are also heavily pre-trib.
Basically, everything you have written is spoken out of ignorance. I know you are a much better expert on these matters than I, but if you care to actually challenge your weakly supported Biblical beliefs about the "rapture" you read this:
http://billbarnwell.blogspot.com/2006/12/leaving-behind-doctrine-of-pre.html
http://billbarnwell.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-are-dispensationalists-obsessed.html
If you are going to debate me on this, use logical Scriptural arguments, not emotionalism, presuppostionalism and name-calling. Your initial statements prove that you have not fully studied this issue and believe there is only one clear-cut option for "true" Christians but you are deeply misinformed. Perhaps you are not quite "someone who knows" all the facts.
And on that note, shame on you for calling into question my relationship with the Lord and many other peoples' apparently because they do not agree with your Biblically debatable (highly debatable) and historically unsupported doctrine of the rapture. Given that your "rebuke" is based on a highly probably misinterpretation of the Scriptures you claim to love so much, you would do yourself well to stop being so arrogant and measure your beliefs against the Word of God. Then perhaps you will see what is actually "false doctrine." By the way, though I strongly disagree with you on this, I would never be so pompous to question your relationship with God without knowing you or to claim that your error on these issues disqualifies you from a real saving knowledge of the Lord.
In Christ,
Bill
Second response:
No, I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the holiness movement denying the Trinity. Certain groups deny the Trinity such as Jehovah's Witnesses, "Oneness Pentecostals", Unitarians, etc but this has nothing to do with mainstream orthodox denominations rooted in Wesleyanism. Also I highly doubt you have studied the rapture issue as much and as thorough as I have. By the way, I too used to strongly believe in the doctrine but it was the Scriptures themselves that convinced me otherwise. You are coming to the Scriptures with preconceived notions that you are readily applying to the text. Let the text speak for itself. There's nothing you are going to tell me that I haven't heard before a thousand times, but I can clearly tell that you are only familiar with one side of this debate.
And no, "history" has not confirmed that people believed the pre-trib rapture prior to 1830. There is one debatable passage from a particular bishop, known as "Pseudo-Ephraim" in the first millenium, but (1) it's authenticity is not verified, (2) the passage itself does not attest to a pre-trib rapture anyway contrary to it's proponents claims and (3) even for the sake of argument that this one citation does point to pre-tribulationalism (which I don't believe it does), how does the opinion of ONE minor figure rule out everybody else for close to 2,000 years? And yes, ultimately Scripture is the key, but it should definitely tell us something if every major and minor teacher of the faith knew NOTHING bout pretribulationalism prior to the mid-1800's! But again, search the Scriptures and the verses you think teach pretribulationalism, and I think you'll find if you're honest that at the very least, these verses aren't saying what you've been taught that they say. If you read closely the material I gave you, I deal with the major verses that you use. You continue to use multiple exlamation points regarding the "real truth" when you only know one side of the issue, and even your own position you do not know very well.
In the end, if you want to hold onto your beliefs in pretribulationalism, you have that right and we can agree to disagree. But don't sink to arrogant and ungodly level of anathemezing people and questioning their salvation because they don't agree with you after their own careful consideration of the facts.
Best,
Bill
Amen to you, Brother Bill, for being forthright and Scriptural and historically accurate when it comes to the pretribulation rapture idea. I ran across an interesting web piece by historian Dave MacPherson on Google titled "Deceiving and Being Deceived" which reveals the utter groundlessness of the claims that Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards taught pretrib before Margaret Macdonald did (type in her name on Wikipedia for an informative analysis of her). Lord bless, keep serving Him! Bruce
You're gonna hate me, but could you comment on this page:
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/clement.htm
Regarding Pastor Hagee and your statement that he WANTS war, he has NEVER preached anything of the sort.
I would think that at your age, it would be advisable for you to study more, listen more, and talk less.
Once you have the FACTS, you will be able to SPEAK UP.
LARRY
SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS
Sorry, Deler, his preaching is in fact very militaristic and his prophetic conclusions show that certain wars are inevitable. Unfortunately for you, I will not talk less and perhaps you sir are lacking all the facts.
TBN should be taken off the air. I used to think that such enshrined ignorance was isolated to backwoods snake handlers, but from seeing the results of the past two presidential elections and the TBN viewership numbers, I see that probably half the country should be locked up in a loony bin.
So out of curiosity...
Did she ever get back to you with her Scriptural arguments for a pre-trib rapture?
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